'99 Tahoe 4x4 Issues related to maintenance of ball joints

[fullm3taljacket]

Alright, a little background...I am not a mechanic and never will be. I have done some research both here and the sister site (Tahoe Yukon Forum) where this will be posted as well, verbatim.

After an 800 mile trip, I had an oil change done to my '99 Tahoe and discovered that the boots were split on my upper ball joints. I was told that this was an $1100 job in total with upper and lower ball joints needing to be replaced, along with the pitman and idler arms being replaced.

So, I feel as though I'm being taken advantage of, as we never looked at the lower ball joints (if there are even lower ball joints, I honestly don't know) and the mechanic tells me about the arms needing to be replaced, but never discussed it at the time of the inspection.

Figuring this forum has an objective point of view, I have a few questions:

First, do you think I rightly feel taken advantage of, or could there be more to the mechanic's concerns with the arms and lower ball joints even though he never discussed them with me then and there?

Second, it is my impression after reading these forums that perhaps I should just grease the joints more regularly and not worry about them too much for some time, would you agree with this?

Third, because the engineers decided in their infinite wisdom to rivet the joints in, this is why the cost for this maintenance is so much (labor). What is the general impression of a reasonable price to have this work done?

Any additional insights are more than welcome and thank you in advance!

-Max

 

[lesterl]

Ball joints are a PITA, but not $1100 PITA.

Why did he want to replace the control arms? Because he was quoting new arms with Ball Joints already installed... cheater.....

I would worry about the joints, if the boots are split and the joint is sound, you could replace the boot and grease the hell out of them....

Pitman arm/ Idler arm/ Idler bracket are ones to replace for good measure.....

Riveted in joints can easily be replaced by pulling control arm and putting in a drill press to drill the rivets out, new ones come with bolts. If the arm bushings are bad, this would be an excellent time to get them replaced as well, and an alignment when done.

 

[fullm3taljacket]

Lesterl,

Thank you for the reply. I try not to be a cynic, so might it be possible that it made a lot of sense to replace the arms at the same time, since the truck is at (an original) 125K miles? It's my understanding that the main labor cost (time) is in removing the rivets, so if this is already getting done, perhaps he was making an intelligent (if perhaps unnecessary) suggestion at replacing the arms?

Are there even rear ball joints in a '99 Tahoe?

I am investing in making this truck last, so would it be a smart move to just grease the joints a great deal until I have enough saved up to do the total job with some to spare?

 

[MO Viet Vet]

lesterl is right. The tech you talked to did not want to do the additional labor for dealing with the rivets. If the control arm bushings are suspect, at both the upper and lower arms, then by all means remove them for the bushings while in there and do the ball joints at the same time. If the bushings are still in good shape then the rivets can be chiseled off and ball joints changed with arms still mounted on the rig. The idler and pitman arm work is a good thing to do while it is apart because some of this labor overlaps and they are known weak spots. IMO the labor for doing this instead of replacing arms is still way cheaper than what the tech advised. Just replacing the boots on the ball joints still requires a lot of labor to get to that point and then who is to say how long the joints will last before have to go back in there again. You just said you wanted to make the truck last so just bite the bullet and do it while apart. Also, make sure the alignment is done right after that. Make sure the tie rods are inspected before teardown to know their condition before alignment, can also do those while doing the other work. IMO best suspension parts are MOOG but some may say differently. Either way I would not have the "lazy/cheater" tech do the work.

 

[fullm3taljacket]

Raiderron,

Thank you very much. So you are saying that the mechanic wouldn't even have to deal with the rivets if he replaced the arms? And that by default, the time it would take to do this would be less (thus making the cost less) but he was going to charge me for the full time/cost as if he had done the rivets? Sorry, I'm just lost in the terminology.

 

[MO Viet Vet]

I don't know the split of parts and labor on your original estimate but the new arms would have new bushings and new ball joints already installed and it is just a bolt in at the top and bottom on both sides. Less overall labor but the parts are more because of what you get with a complete arm. The idler and pitman arm work would be the same parts and labor as stated before on the original estimate. I would have to see a breakdown on the original estimate to know for sure. Some shops just throw one price at you and say it includes everything but I like to see a breakdown of each part of it. To answer your question, the tech does not deal with the rivets or changing the control arm bushings if he just bolts in a new arm. The labor would be less at that point but the parts would be more. It could be a wash. You might make sure you have an itemized breakdown of parts and labor and call other reputable shops for other estimates. Make sure the estimates are like comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Also find out what new sway bar links would be for both sides. Should be just a pat price for those and no labor since it is a labor overlap. Also get an estimate for tie rods while in there. Then you would have a whole new front end.

 

[fullm3taljacket]

WOW...I feel like I was about to get completely taken if they didn't even need to attack the rivets, because they were going to!

With all of the front end work you mention, would the $1100 price tag sound more reasonable or are we still talking about more than is reasonable?

 

[MO Viet Vet]

Like I said, I would need a breakdown of what the costs for parts and labor is. If they were doing all you said and including the tie rods in the same estimate and include the alignment then I would say go for it but I need a breakdown of what they were charging for each thing and then I can look up the list and give my opinion from there.

 

[lesterl]

I gave $50 for a Poly bushing front end set, around $30/ ea for the pitman/idler/ bracket, ball joints were near $30 /ea, so I had $260 in parts and a near fully rebuilt front end, I did not change out the gearbox and the tie rod ends, but they were good on that rig.

I agree with ron that MOOG is the only way to go on front end parts you want to last, and IMHO look for the MOOG PROBLEM SOLVER varient as they improve the original design.

The only reasons to replace the control arms is to replace one if it is broken/ damaged, or if you are just lazy.

The arms were quoted because then the repair just becomes bolt on, cutting the labor way down. The rivets on the top arm have to be drilled through and chiseled out (they are very hard rivets and hard to drill out.) the lower arm the joints need to be pressed out with a press, also the bushings need to be pressed in/ out like the lower joints.

Less labor on control arm replacement, more cost on parts.....

 

[MO Viet Vet]

X2.

 

[fullm3taljacket]

So I finally got around to getting some quotes with itemized lists.

I told each shop that I needed pitman and idler arms replaced along with both control arms (which each come with their own socket joints). I asked for Moog Problem Solver everything, but Moog no longer makes control arms for my model, so that's going to be standard. My tie rods and sway bar links looked good as-is.

The highest price I got was for $2K (without my military discount applied) and their itemized list was:

7 Hours of Labor (w/ alignment): $660 total
2x Lower Ball Joints: $124 total
2x Upper Control Arms: $560 total
2x Lower Control Arm Bushings: $150 total
1x Idler Arm: $170
1x Pitman Arm: $124
Alignment: $90

The low-end shop is giving me a $900 quote (with my military discount being used) and their itemized list shows:

4 hours of labor: $400
Idler arm: $150
Pitman arm: $110
Upper control arms x2: $220 total

Just realized this one didn't put alignment in...they're pretty lax about things like that, it is possible they'll throw it in, but let's say $90 just to be safe, getting me out the door at just under $1K. That's at least a $1K difference between the two!

Does my description to the shops seem correct? Is the low-end quote realistic? Have I missed anything here?

 

[MO Viet Vet]

On the lower estimate you don't have the lower ball joints or lower arm bushing and additional labor in there. Plus no alignment added in to the estimate.

 

[ma87k5]

If you haven't done to ball joints yet. The rivets can be taken of with a hand held grinder with the arms still on the truck. You could probably do one side in about an hour.

 

[lesterl]

Uppers are rivited in, they can be drilled out and use an air chisel with a punch insert to punch them out, lowers are pressed into the control arm, that one you will need to rent a press, I have done both uppers and lowers with control arms installed on the vehicle.

 

[MO Viet Vet]

lesterl is correct as usual. I have removed the lower control arms and taken to my work bench and vise and hammered the lower ball joints out and then cleaned the hole and lubed and hammered new ball joints back in using a large diameter socket but it was very loud and dirty work. Press is better but I am cheap at times and sometimes a rental tool is either cheap or worn out and does not work as well as should.

 

[lesterl]

I used to never pull the LCA unless bushings needed to be replaced, but now I have a shop press and I will NOT rent another one of those POS C clamp presses unless I have to again......

 

[MO Viet Vet]

That's what I was talking about. I should have mentioned that I always did replace the LCA bushings while I had them off and beat them out too. I used to have a press in the shops I ran but not at home. They were nice to have.

 

[lesterl]

Havent used mine much, but it has been nice...

 

[fullm3taljacket]

*Updated on both forums

The least expensive shop told me that that cost ($875 OTD) did include the alignment, but that the lower ball joints would be considerably more...taking it to about $1450 for the total replacement of the pitman arm, idler arm, upper control arms, upper and lower ball joints along with the alignment, with all parts (except the control arms) being Moog Problem Solvers (Moog no longer makes the control arms) and includes all of the labor therein.

This seems reasonable given that I have an almost identical quote for two other shops (previously posted). What is y'all's take? What signifies poor shape of lower ball joints, just the bushings?

I wish I had the know-how, but as I said I am by no means a mechanic...I can do the basics and that's about it (a fact I am not happy about, incidentally).

 

[MO Viet Vet]

Too bad you don't have a friend you could have show you how it is done. It can be dirty work and always helps to have the right tools and knowledge. Even if the lower ball joints check good at this time it only makes sense to do them while it is all apart or you will have old and new parts mixed. Do the lower control arm bushings, too.

Pick the shop you feel best about and trust the most. Has the best warranty and doesn't mind you asking lots of questions.